#5 Let Go, or Be Dragged
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I have 3 questions for you.
1) Have you ever felt like you're stuck in a rut and your own behavior is sabotaging you from being the best version of yourself, but you just quite haven’t figured out how to flip the script and break free?
2) Have you ever struggled with depression or addiction, or do you have a kiddo or loved one who has, and you’d like some rock-solid guidance and deep wisdom on how to navigate those challenging waters and conquer those demons?
3) Do you like true stories that are jam packed with motivation, inspiration, transformation, and raw authentic human connection and vulnerability?
If you answered YES to ANY of those questions, than this episode is for you!
On this episode, I interview Mike, an incredible human being who shares his journey of how he
became an alcoholic at age 12
nearly died multiple times (at his own hands and others)
got into a fist fight with an MMA fighter
went to jail
and then radically transformed into an entirely different version of himself who has not only healed, but also contributes greatly to the healing of others.
Buckle up, because this is a wild ride that you do not want to miss.
This story demonstrates that while life throws us all different levels of adversity, we have the ability and power to heal, grow, and thrive.
It takes courage, perseverance, and self-love to overcome our challenges, but you can do it.
Episode #5 Transcription
joe: Hey guys, Joe here. Today I got the opportunity to interview somebody who I love and admire so much. His name is Mike and he's my cousin, but he's also just such a remarkable human being, and his transformational journey is radical. He has so much to offer in this conversation, especially if you've ever felt like you can't turn your ship around or your life is just getting to be way too much for you to handle.
But before I get into it, I have to advise you that not only do we use profanity in this episode, we also cover topics of mental health, suicidal ideations, addiction, depression, and a whole bunch of heavy stuff. So use your discretion while listening. That being said, I have to share with you that my cousin Mike, is an incredible person to listen to because he's transformed himself from one end of the spectrum to the other in so many different ways that it's really hard to articulate.
You're just gonna have to hear it. But the gist of it is that he used to suffer under the weight of such severe depression and addiction that he almost drank himself to death and put a gun to his own head multiple times. Yet now he doesn't wake up or go to bed without feeling immense gratitude and deep inner peace.
He also failed out of high school, later, failed out of college on his first attempt, and then yet came back to not only get one degree, but two degrees with a 4.0 gpa. Graduating magna cum loud and summa cum loud. And then in 2020, in the height of the pandemic, he started a new career as a nurse. Yes, he went into the field of nursing in the middle of the pandemic.
And this is a guy who, for the first half of his life, is self-described as exceptionally lazy, hating effort of any type, and entirely addicted to comfort and alcohol. And yet now he's just fostered this radical serenity and he's mastered his mind and his emotions, and he has these exceptional wellness practices, and he helps people nonstop.
He's just really an incredible dude with a crazy wild journey that I really think you're gonna enjoy listening to, although it does get a little heavy at times. So without further ado, here's my conversation with my cousin. What's up buddy? What's up man? Not a whole lot other than sitting down to do my very first podcast interview with my favorite cousin Noles.
And thank you so much for doing this, by the way, bro. I know it's way outside of your comfort zone and I appreciate it so much, dude. And the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you is that your journey has been remarkable in a lot of ways, and I lived a lot of it with you, but I've never really had the chance to sit down and like unpack it all and to get your perspective and your feelings on a lot of what you've gone through.
And now we're like both at the halfway mark of our lives. It's so crazy to think about this, but my kids are damn near the age that you were when you started battling addiction and struggling with all of your mental health issues. And so I just feel like really compelled to have like a super raw conversation and to grow and heal and try to connect on an even deeper level than we already have.
And also, I wanna see if we can't like share the traumas and the triumphs with whoever might be listening to help them out in their journey. If you're cool with all that, dude, I know it's a big ask.
mike: Yeah, absolutely. For sure. Because for people listening, you know, uh, we're cousins and we grew up together, but you were always on a slightly different path than me.
We would hang out a lot, but I had my set of friends on the side that I would kind of party and drink with. And you had your set of friends on the side. Sometimes we'd hang out together, sometimes we didn't. And then you were always a little bit more responsible than me at that, at the young ages when we were teenagers at least.
And, um, and through the college times too, that you were kind of had your shit together more than I did. So we were kind of, we were around each other a lot, but you missed some of the things that I, you know, was dealing with and you were, you saw some of it as well. So yeah, I have like
joe: memory gaps and I was hoping you could plug the holes on some of this stuff for
mike: me if I can.
I don't remember some of it myself. Well, yeah,
joe: you were blackout drunk during a lot of it. Yeah. All right. So speaking of that, and we're gonna get kind of deep here, but my aunt, your mom got diagnosed with leukemia when we were 12, and she eventually passed away from that. And I remember going on that journey with you, but we were also kind of like latchkey kids and nobody really talked to us about feelings.
And so at that time I didn't even really know much about what cancer was. And then all of a sudden Aunt Cheryl had cancer and then I was hanging out with you a lot, but we weren't like allowed to go inside of your house because your mom was sick. And I remember we were skateboarding a lot during that time.
But again, dude like Sophie is almost that age right now. And my kids have never experienced a loss like that. But we've lost three dogs and they've lost multiple grandparents and all their great-grandparents, and I have to sit with them in their feelings like. Even if they're just bullied or have a bad, I shouldn't say just bullied, even if they're bullied or they have a bad day at school, like we do counseling, we do journaling.
Their emotions require a lot of attention. And yet your mom was like fighting a gnarly battle with cancer and I just kind of remember like being off in parking lots, skateboarding with you and not really talking about it. So I'm just wondering like, what was that like for you and how did you find out and like did your dad talk to you about all that stuff and did you process it Eventually?
Obviously it led you into a, a whole shitload of terrible challenges, but it's just kind of one of the areas where I have my own memory of it, but it wasn't my experience and obviously we were super tight hanging out 24 7. But like at 12 years old, I never really even thought about my feelings and we never talked about that stuff back then.
mike: No, we didn't. I don't think, I don't think it's very common for 12 year old boys to talk about their feelings in that way. Um, especially like major life, things like that. My brother's eight years older than me, so he was, when my mom died, he was already in college in a fraternity, so he had some support from his fraternity brothers and stuff.
We were a little more mature and knew how to, knew how to interact with someone who had gone through something like that. But you know, when you're 12, like my friends, they didn't know what the hell to say to me. Um, but from my memory, uh, my dad took me and my sister and my brother into his bedroom and sat us down and said, your mom has, she's really sick.
She has cancer and we're gonna do everything we can. And it had already been a rough kind of year or two for me cuz they, they were going through a separation. I don't know if you remember that. My dad had already moved outta the house and was living in a condo and I used to go over there and I didn't like going over there and stuff, but, Yeah, my mom had gotten, she'd been sick with like a cold or a flu for like two months and just wasn't kicking it.
And my, you know, finally my dad told her to go to their doctor and her blood work was all, all messed up. And, um, she was di you know, diagnosed with, uh, acute, I think it's acute lymphocytic leukemia, uh, but it kills you really fast. It's very rare. And she had a rare, uh, bone marrow type as well? No, none of us were a match.
And she was on the list, but, uh, the list was, you know, she was her, she had a rare type so, um, that didn't come through for her. And so I remember thinking at that age, you know, when you're 12, you're kind of naive. At least I was. And I just thought, okay, no problem. The doctors are gonna fix her and she'll be fine.
Um, but obviously that's not the way it went down. She got pretty sick, went through chemo. I just remember it being very awkward for me at that age and being, I was very just, you know, it's, uh, I was just blindsided by it. It was, you know, a confusing time. I didn't really know how to react. I was probably emotionally immature from my age.
I don't know what was going on, but I just remember thinking, you know, just move about my life and ignore what's going on and it'll be fine. And I think that's why her death kind of like, was such a big shock to me cuz I hadn't really entertained the notion that she was gonna die. I didn't even have that as a possibility in my mind.
Like I said, I was just kind of a naive o optimistic kid thinking, yeah, it'll be all right. And then it wasn't, you know, she was sick for a year and a half. She had, she also had epilepsy, so she was having a lot of, I think, uh, the sickness and the, the, I don't know if it was the meds, but I think it lowered her seizure threshold.
So she was having seizures and, you know, I'd come home from school and one day I came home from school. My grandma was cleaning up a giant pool of blood on the floor. And like, she was in the, she had already gone to the hospital. She had a seizure and hit her head. And, you know, she was just, she was bald.
She lost like 90 pounds, just looked like hell, you know, she was throwing up constantly. I used to, You know, empty her vomit bucket for her and, you know, try and take care of her. But I was also, you know, I wasn't really old enough or mature enough to take very good care of her that that obligation mostly fell on my sister.
You know, like I said, my brother was away at college, Karen was in high school, so she pretty much took the brunt of like driving my mom to the, uh, her doctor's appointments and things like that. So, like you said, I would, you know, go hang out with you and just try and be a kid. But it was, yeah, it was a lot to deal with and I didn't know how to deal with it.
And like I said, it was, you know, when, when she died, I know it was weird too because my dad is a great man, but he is not, he's not really emotionally, uh, he's not into the emotions. So for, uh, you know, he and I didn't really talk about it either. His, his thing is, you know, he has a lot of healthy habits, but some of them aren't, you know, they're not accessing emotions.
It's like you go to work and put your head down. You get through shit, you know, which I think there's something to be said for that. But, you know, I didn't, I didn't do any counseling or anything like that and, uh, it hit me hard. I don't know. It seems like everything, just, everything changed at that point.
Some of it's kind of a blur, but, um, that was crushed, you know, when my mom died, it was devastating and I didn't really know what to do. I didn't know how to act. I remember having all kinds of weird thoughts. I never ran 'em by any adults either. I would just think these things, you know, like, okay, am I allowed to have fun?
Like, how long can it be before I'm seen having fun? Like, is it a year? Like, what's, you know, but I never, I wasn't the type, I was kind of a quiet, introspective kid, so I wasn't the type to really ask adults about that and, you know, ask for what I needed or, you know, I was, I was confused. I didn't know what people did when their parents died.
I was, none, none of my friends' parents had died. I didn't know what that was like. So, and then, you know, some kids at Cool at school were either. Didn't know what the hell to say. So it was super awkward, or they're kind of cruel about it. Like, one kid I remember was like, you're a liar. I don't believe you.
You know, it was like two weeks after she died. So it was just a, it was just a shitty time in my life, you know? And then, uh, yeah, so I don't know what you remember of that time, but I remember being with you going to the funeral and, uh, you know, bits and pieces like that. I remember your mom stepped up big time and, you know, helped out as like, she was, became like a, um, like kind of a mother figure to me.
Yeah.
joe: Uh, who? Whew. Fuck man. Thank you for sharing all that with me, dude, that, oh, that's brutal. That breaks my heart listening to that. But like I said, I, I had some awareness and memory gaps and I hadn't heard a lot of your perspective on that, so that was really good for me to hear. And to answer your question, yes, I, I do remember your parents were separated.
I remember. Hanging out with you a lot at your dad's condo, and again, skateboarding and just kind of, you would share a little bit with me that you were uncomfortable with that whole situation, but that was like the extent of really how much we discussed it. And then I remember your mom being sick and losing her hair.
And again, we didn't really talk about it too much. And then like you said, I remember being at that funeral with you and I was confused by the whole thing myself, but also I wanted to say something helpful or comforting to you, but I was confused, like I didn't know what to say. I remember being confused and thinking like, should I say I'm sorry to him?
Or I just, I didn't know what to say or how to help. And then it just kind of seemed like you lived with me from that point on 24 7. And like you said, my mom kind of. Took you under her wing in the role of mom. I, I know I spoke with her later on. She told me that that was, uh, something your mom had asked her to, to promise her that, you know, she, she would take care of you guys and, you know, uh, seem, seemed like, you know, we kind of shifted from cousins to brothers at that point, which like, I don't want to say is awesome because that was such a tragedy.
But if there is a little light in the darkness, I'm, I'm so grateful for the relationship we had and not having an actual brother. I, we've discussed this many times. I know a lot of people say, oh, he is like my brother. But like, no, we literally grew up like brothers and I'm so thankful for the bond that we have.
Yeah, for
mike: sure.
joe: Okay, so that was terrible. And then I remember. It wasn't too long after that that you started drinking heavily. Do you remember when that first
mike: began? I remember the first time I ever drank, I was walking home from school, I think it was seventh grade. I wanna say I was, you know, really small for my age, I probably weighed 95 pounds.
And, um, I say that because of, um, when I say how much I drank, uh, that first time a friend of mine from school said, Hey, do you wanna come over to my stepdad's apartment and drink some alcohol? I was like, yeah, I want to do that. And I have no idea why. I was so eager. I was like, hell yeah, let's do that. Uh, I was with another friend and he was like, nah, I'm gonna go home.
I'm not gonna do that with you guys. But my reaction was like, yep. So started doing shots of vodka and I did, I don't know, he said he drank less than me so he could remember some of this, but. He said, I drank about 20 shots and then lost count. And I just, it was a big blur. I got really sick. I, you know, his stepdad came home and found me, laid out on the floor, covered in vomit, you know, this little kid.
And he was probably, uh, so he, he brought me to the hospital and my blood alcohol concentration was like four eight. They said, you should be in a coma dead. That's oftentimes not survivable, especially for, you know, for, for a kid, you know, and so not someone with any tolerance at all. So then I remember my dad told me, uh, Hey, this is probably a good thing that's happened cuz now you learn some healthy respect for alcohol.
And I was like, yeah, I'm never doing that again. You know? And then, uh, high school years came on and I found myself drinking again. And I remember I, it was like I had found this amazing thing that was, Just fix everything. I felt so good when I drank, all my problems melted away. The anxiety was gone. I mean, this is pretty commonly, you know, when you hear alcoholics talk about the early days of their drinking is kind of right in line with what most, most will say.
You know, I had found this tool that's gonna get rid of my anxiety. Uh, I had been what I now recognize as pretty badly depressed. I didn't know that it had a name. I didn't know. I didn't know what depression it was back then. But starting like right after my mom's death, probably a little before even, I remember having this feeling, this fearful feeling.
I didn't know what I was afraid of, but it was definitely fear-based, kind of an emotion, hopeless feeling. Just this heavy darkness surrounding me that I knew was not pr, probably not normal. It didn't seem like other people my age had that, but that was lifted when I drank. And then I could have confidence and go up and talk to people.
I could go talk to girls. I could do all this shit that I wanted to do. That I thought people with courage did. I thought, this is, this is what normal, this is making me normal. So I, I felt abnormal and the alcohol in my mind made me feel like I was normal and that I could cope with life. It's just this amazing thing I had found, you know?
So, of course I wanted to do it as much as possible and for as long as possible. Uh, it turns out it's not compatible with being a responsible, normal person. So, you know, I didn't, I, I did not do well in school. As a result. I never held a job until I got sober. I was fired from most of my jobs, problems with family, problems with the law.
You know, you saw me go through all that D U I and underage drinking arrests and all that stuff, and massive emotional instability. I was a mess during that whole time. I was a completely non-functioning person. Okay,
joe: so your mom passed away shortly thereafter at 13. You got your first taste of alcohol and you drank so much that you, by all reasoning, probably should have ended up dead.
Then what happened after that? I remember high school was bananas, dude, you were off the rails. It was sometimes fun, but most of the time scary. Uh, I lived through it with you, but can you give me your perspective of what the high school years were like dealing with unprocessed emotions, grief and uh, newfound alcoholism.
mike: My dad was working pretty hard, going on a lot of business trips and I was left alone probably too much for my own. You know, not that I blame him for that cuz some kids would've been just fine. But, uh, I wasn't, I uh, I was throwing parties at his house. I was drinking all the time. Any chance I could get, I found all the friends I had were friends that were also drinking heavy.
So, you know, you, you fit in with the crowd of people who aren't gonna challenge anything that you do. You know? So I, you know, I was like, I think I was, oddly, I was like the worst one of that group though. They would always tell me I was, I was an alcoholic, but, you know, we pretty much all were. But like I said, you know, I was driving drunk, getting arrested, getting in fights, usually losing those fights, you know, like alcoholics say all the time.
At first it was fun. It was fun with problems, and then it was just problems. It wasn't even fun anymore. I had gotten to the point where my life was miserable and my, even my drinking was miserable by senior year of high school.
joe: Okay, so you mentioned getting arrested. I have to hear now that time has passed.
What the heck was it like being like 115 pound high schooler at Joe Arpaio's Tent City? You gotta tell me what jail was like. And I remember that story about you stole a guy's betting or something and it got really crazy. And also I seem to remember that I got your car for a while because your license got suspended and I needed a car.
Can you fill me in on all of that?
mike: Yeah, it was like in 1999, I think I got a d u I after school one day in the afternoon. And I guess back then if you were, if you were under 18 and you got a d u I, you lost your license for like two years. So my car was no good to me, so I think you, you got to borrow it for a while or something, but um, yeah, capital, I capitalized
joe: off of your dysfunction.
It was pretty sweet. I was driving that jeep around.
mike: It was, uh, yeah, it was crazy. I went to tent City. For a few days. Um, and we were
joe: little dude, we were like 120 pounds soaking wet. I gotta know what that was like
mike: in jail. Yeah. For, for anybody who didn't know us back then, I w you know, we both were, but I, I was very small.
I was a skinny kid, you know, barely, you know, I'd grown a little bit in height, but I was, I was drinking a lot and not eating much and not exercising. I was not, you know, athletic like I am now. I was a mess. But, uh, so I was very small and you know, like I said, I started a lot of fights, but, uh, the other guy would usually finish 'em.
And I, I think I just had a lot of anger and, and you know, chip on my shoulder. I was angry at the world, so I would start fights with people and then get beat up. Uh, cause I would mouth off a lot, but, which is funny cuz that's the opposite of my personality when I'm. When I'm not drinking, I'm not like that at all.
Uh, but yeah, I went to Tent City and this guy, you know, people go away on work furlough, so they, they've been there a while. You know, some of these people have like three months sentences for D U I, whatnot. And I was just there for a few nights, but I was freezing. It was December. I was, it was very cold that time of year.
And these tents you're in, you know, they're not insulated. There's no heat. You're like trying to sleep and it's like 28 degrees out. So this guy had collected a whole bunch of blankets and you only, you're only issued one when you go in there. So he had this thick stack of blankets. So I, I was thinking I could like take some of his blankets and return 'em in the morning before he got back.
But they were, the way he had made his bed, I thought I would mess it up too much. So I just climbed in his bed and then, and then before he got back, I, I hopped out and tried to make it look presentable, but he came back, he could tell someone had slept in his bed. And, uh, there's all these like gang member kids in there and they ratted me out like in a second.
They're like, it was that guy. And, uh, so this guy was gonna beat me up and then luckily they called me to lay, to, to go to the front and, and get released so I didn't have to face. Sorry, I, you know, didn't get beat up. But this
joe: guy, he like, Goldilocks, you, right? Like, he was like, who the fuck was in my bed?
Hundred percent right? If I remember the story, you were like, laying in your bed, like pre, like pretending nothing had happened. Right. I pretended
mike: to be asleep. I pretended to be asleep in my bed with my back turn. And he's like, who the hell's been sleeping in my bed? He's a grown
joe: ass man in jail. And you're like a 19 year old skinny teenager.
This had to be fucking terrifying, dude. Oh, it was
mike: terrifying. I thought I was gonna get killed and, uh, you know, like I said, the, the, the gangster kids in there ratted me out.
joe: Come on man. Snitches get stitches. What the
mike: fuck? Like, right away too. And then he was, you know, came up, pulled me out of the bed and he was in my face.
He was gonna hit me. And then they called my name on the intercom and they're like, report to the front. You're being released. So. Oh, saved by the bell, dude. Oh, a hundred percent. I took off running, I was outta there. Oh my gosh.
joe: But how long were you in there for? Two days or one day?
mike: I think two days. Yeah.
It was, it wasn't too bad, you know. It was my first dui. So I guess the cop or the, the judge was lenient, but, uh, could have been worse. Could have been a lot worse.
joe: Obviously you were drinking a shit load when you were drinking. How frequently were you drinking?
mike: At first, it wasn't that often. You know, every, every few weeks I'd go to a party.
There'd be some beer there, you know, drink it, but it got more and more, uh, I had a job at a golf course and we could steal beer all the time outta that place. So we did that. You know, we would just find ways, you know, I would, I was drinking probably four or five days a week by my senior year of high school.
Junior and senior year. Okay. Uh, my, my friend had graduated a year before I did, and he moved into a house with two guys, and their job was to deliver beer for Budweiser. They drove trucks for Budweiser, so we would go to his house and for some reason they were much older than us, but they didn't care if a bunch of young kids were hanging out at their house.
Apparent. I'd go over there, the whole fridge would be stocked with with beer and they didn't give a shit. We'd just give 'em some money and we'd hang out and drink all the time. We would steal alcohol, you know, I'd steal it from wherever I could get it. And so yeah, it was like several times a week I could always sober up for a day or two.
I got really, really bad hangovers back then. Most people I know that age didn't, but so I was feeling either horribly hungover or drunk pretty much that whole time.
joe: Okay. So like you mentioned, you're truly like the most peaceful, non-confrontational guy, but you would get drunk and obviously all of these unprocessed feelings, they gotta go somewhere and they went out into the bottle or into like rage and fights and all sorts of crazy shit.
Can you tell me the story when. You were like at a convenience store and you fought an m m a fighter and he threw you through the glass door. I, I don't remember all the details. I remember you got beat up so many times back then. So
mike: many times. I wish I knew who that guy was. Um, I was in a gas station by an alcohol one time.
I just turned 21, I think, and it was real late at night. And this guy who was delivering, yeah, I guess he worked for, he was delivering some stuff to the gas station, but he was friends with the clerk that worked in the gas station. So they were talking and I wanted to buy my alcohol and get outta there.
So they were talking and the guy wasn't ringing up my order. And so the guy talking to the clerk took off his shirt and was showing him his new tattoos and stuff. And I said some smart ass comment about his tattoo. Probably called him some names or something. And he ran over and picked me up onto his shoulder, ran toward the door to the gas station and threw me into the glass door.
It shattered. I flew outside and I was on my back and then he came over. I thought he was gonna start kicking me, but he just, it was weird. He put his hand out and he helped me up. I think he realized he went a little overboard and he threw me through the window and he shoved me and he said, get the hell outta here.
And so I did. And then I went home and I went to my dad's closet and I was going to, I was looking for his shotgun. I was gonna get the shotgun and go back there and shoot the place up. Geez, dude. Yeah. But I passed out in the closet. I woke up in the closet and um, thank god I probably would've gone back there.
The guy probably would've been gone. I probably would've shot some innocent person. I could have been in prison right now. But I don't know you as somebody who's
joe: capable of violence, so that's so weird. But obviously that's not you. That's like repressed. Young man, emotion, grief, alcohol, like crazy shit.
It's just so weird to hear that coming outta your mouth, you know?
mike: Exactly. I was already suicidal by that time, so I don't know. I didn't really have much value for my own life. It's pretty hope hopeless at that point, so, yeah. Yeah. The reason I knew it was an m m A fighter was, cuz I went to that gas station again the next night to buy more alcohol and the clerk was laughing and he said, do you know who that guy was?
He said, that guy's a cage fighter. He does that for a professionally, he's, he's an MMA fighter. He could have killed you.
joe: You were an involuntary sparring partner there for a minute. Dude,
mike: I wish I could go back and find that if I could see that. Um, camera footage. Oh my God, that would've
joe: been amazing. You know, they were watching it laughing afterwards.
Like everybody, like all their friends. Yes, exactly. If we
mike: had what we have now, if we had social media in the internet back then, You'd been viral. So many, so it would've been viral. So many stupid things that I'd done would've been on video. I feel bad for kids nowadays. That's just embarrassing. All, most of my embarrassing moments weren't, weren't video recorded.
They were just in people's memories.
joe: Most of them. Some of them were.
mike: I think some of them probably were. I don't know. What are people walking around
joe: with? Camcorders. It was back in the day. You're talking about dude,
mike: sometimes at a party, someone would have a camcorder or something like that. Cause you know, we didn't have phones with cameras then.
No, we didn't have
joe: phones. Thank God. Okay, so you were a wreck. You failed high school. You somehow got your g e d and I have no idea how you got accepted to n a U with me. And we went up there to go to col. Well, I, I went up there to go to college. You went up there to
mike: drink more, but you went, you went up there.
You'd convinced me to go up there. I think you were a little kind of naively optimistic too. You were like, Mikey, come up to college, you're gonna get away from this shit. You'll be all right. You'll do what you do well. And, um, yeah, I didn't do so well, but, okay.
joe: So the way I remember that it got worse before it got better.
It got really even more bananas up there. But then that was like the first, the, I guess the second time you almost drank yourself to death. And I feel like, am I recalling correctly? That was the catalyst towards you getting into recovery. But how did it start? I remember you didn't go to class
mike: at all.
Right? Yeah, I think I went to class for like the first month and then I just stopped. I was just, like I said, I wasn't capable of doing anything back then. I was the least responsible, mature person you'd ever meet. It's crazy. And so you were
joe: just drinking like every day, right? And you were destroying property, you were going bananas.
mike: Yeah, it used stupid stuff, you know, got upset with something a girl said, so I ripped the drinking fountain off the wall. I didn't know it was gonna flood the whole dorm. You know, I was, I'm sorry
joe: to laugh at this. I remember. It's funny. Here's my recollection of this event, dude. So obviously. We all woke up to this like huge crashing noise and water flooding the dorm and we're all like asleep, like looking at like what is going on?
And you're out there with everybody else, like sleep in your eyes, like rubbing your eyes, like what's happening? And then I pretended
mike: like I didn't know what happened. So it looked like I just got woken up like everybody
joe: else did. Yeah. And then I talked to you a couple days later, the next day or whatever, and you told me you were drunk, you were mad at some chick.
You hulked the drinky fountain off the wall. Then you ran into your dorm and your roommate saw you like jump into bed, take off all your clothes, get in your boxers, and then get out of bed and walk out and pretend like you were like asleep and like put on this show. So we all saw you like, just like you were like all of us.
Like what the hell's going on? But he saw you run into your room, strip down, and then run back outta your, am I remembering that right? Yeah, I think
mike: that's how it went down. Like it, that's how I remember it. Oh. So he probably thought I was absolutely insane. I think that that poor roommate, man, I probably scared that kid to death.
joe: And then when you got sober down the road, you made your amends, right? And you went back to N A U and told them all about that stuff and admitted
mike: it. Yeah. When I got sober the first time I, you know, I did, I was doing the 12 steps and, you know, one of those steps is to make amends for harm you've done.
And I went up there and I, I found I had to go to the director of the dorms and track 'em down. And I sat in his office and I told him what I'd done and some other things too. And he remembered it very clearly. And I, I, I had to ask him what, um, what can I do to make it right? And he just showed me a ton of grace.
He said, just go get your degree, finish your degree somewhere. Be a responsible person. So I promised I would do that, and I ended up doing that a few years. Fuck yeah,
joe: you did, bro. Multiple degrees 4.0 gpa. Magna Kum. Loud Summa, Kun loud. That's redemption of the soul right there, bro. But finish telling me what happened up there before we got to that stage.
Please.
mike: I remember you were, you know, you were doing your thing, you were going to class and you had your, you know, you were, um, dating your now wife at the time still, and, you know, you had your, you had your shit together, so you were probably kind of busy. You didn't see everything that I was getting up to up there.
But, you know, I, uh, some of it, yeah, you'd come over to my dorm room. I'm sitting there drinking, uh, Jack Daniel's bottle at like 11:00 AM you know, so I know you were pretty frustrated and you know, I remember you trying to talk to our parents about it. They thought it was just normal college partying, but you, you knew it wasn't.
And then,
joe: let me pause you there, dude. Okay. So I had been watching this happen for. I don't know, 10 years almost at that point. And again, dude, as a dad who's like emotionally mature and knows about addiction now it's a totally different lens with which I view that through. But I just like, I didn't have names for my feelings back then, but I think like fear would probably be the biggest one concern.
I was so worried about you and you know how like your grief manifested as anger and you're like fighting him and may people at, you know, and like yelling at people in traffic and stuff. I think my, my fear and my worry over you and my confusion over your addiction and everything, That manifested as anger too.
And I just started getting frustrated with you. And I was even more frustrated because like you said, you know, in retrospect, hindsight's 2020 and our parents were doing the best they could. But like I was, we were adults cuz we were like 19. But I would call, I would consider them grownups. I was calling like every grownup who we knew, like my mom, your brother, your dad.
And I was like telling them like, dude, something is wrong with Mikey. Like this is, I'm nervous, this is dangerous. And like, dude, I was nose to the grindstone, never partied. And they weren't up there seeing it. And so they were just like, you don't get it cuz you don't party. You know what I mean? And they're like, our family liked to party, you know what I mean?
So they're like, I'm the black sheep because I don't drink and party at this time. Right? And so I got really dismissed by them. And again, like I said, knowing what I know now, I would've been more. Assertive and like more clear with my language and articulating to them what was going on. But I was pretty docile, you know?
So I just kind of got shut down and I got really frustrated. I'm getting to a point here. So one day I walked into your dorm room and I think you were supposed to be in class, and like you said, it's 10 in the morning and you're staring at a blank TV and you have like an empty bottle of Jack Daniels that you're like drinking out of, and you like drank the whole fucking bottle and you're just shit faced in the morning.
And so this is weird, dude. It's interesting that you brought that up because um, I was uncomfortable calling our parents and telling them about that. Like it took a lot of nerve to like share that with them. And I got totally blown off and I was like, watching you deteriorate and like, Now I picture my son in your shoes, dude.
And like how hurting you must have been at 19 and how challenging that must have been. And I loved you. Like what I would've said if I could go back is like, dude, I'm so sorry you're hurting this much. And like, how can I help? And like, I would've sat with you in it, you know? But instead, I got mad at you dude, and I called you a fuck up and I threw my, I threw your backpack at you.
Do you remember that?
mike: Yeah. I kind of, I vaguely remember
joe: that I picked up a backpack full of books and I threw it at you. And I was like, you're such a fuck up. And I left your room. And like, honestly, bro, because of the way I conduct myself, I'm not mean. And I very rarely do things that I like, feel bad about.
And when I do, I quickly recognize them and I make amends. So I don't have a lot of like shame and regret. But that is like, that's honestly one of the, I sit in that still. I fucking hate that I did that. I'm so sorry, dude. Like, I know I'm different. You're different. It is what it is. But like, we've never talked about that.
I feel terrible about that. Like, especially like I said, dude, like I just picture Sean in your shoes and like, oh, you needed a fucking hug. Not one more person to make you, especially your ride or die to like tell you you were a fuck up, which is already how you were feel. I don't know. Dude, it, it hurts, man.
I'm sorry. I wish I knew then what I know now. And I could have loved you through that.
mike: I understand why you did that and that was your reaction. Um, and I, I don't know if it would've made any difference if, if you were nicer or. You know, supportive in certain ways or not, you know, think that, I don't think that's how alcoholism gets fixed, you know, just by being, you know, cuz some people are enablers and they're very nice to alcoholics and addicts and they just get shit on and it doesn't work.
You know? So I don't, I don't think it would've made any damn bit of difference. I was, I, I needed more, you know? But I can understand why you feel the way you do now. Of course. But you know, at a certain point I probably did need someone to say what you're doing is not all right and it's not acceptable and you can't continue that.
That's not what I
joe: said. So, and I get what you're saying. I wouldn't have made you hit rock bottom and get treatment, but it's just such an asshole. It's, it wasn't, I wasn't a dick. I have grace on my former self. Yeah. I was a young, confused kid who was frustrated and scared for. But I don't know, man. That one just hurts, dude.
Um, so I'm sorry. Yeah, well,
mike: lots of regrets, man. Um, I got plenty, but I try not to frame 'em as regrets nowadays, you know, and just with the information I had at my de my developmental level that I was at, that's what happened. You know? Um, yeah, I would've done things differently now, but I'm a 41 year old man now.
Of course, I would do things differently, but, so yeah, during that time, shit was getting pretty bad. I was, I tried to, you know, I tried to hang myself with a belt in the, in the, uh, uh, communal bathroom in the dorm. And it hurt so damn bad that I pulled myself up. Luckily, I had the bo upper body strength that pulled myself back up that belt and untie it from the pipe I had tied it to, and dropped to the ground.
And, you know, someone came in and was. Saw me sitting on the floor with a belt around my neck and breathing heavy. And he is like, uh, are you okay? And I was like, I'm pretty fucking far from okay dude. And he left. And then I just went about my life. That's just how it was for me back then. I cut the hell outta my arms with a razor blade pretty bad one time.
You know, I didn't really want to die. I just wanted to be out of that pain housing so much. I don't know. I couldn't manage life. Life was too much for me. I don't know why. If it was because, I mean, there are other people who've had far worse things happen to them than me, but for whatever reason, um, that's just, that's just how it was for me.
So I ended up getting really sick up there. I had pancreatitis real bad, and two kidney infections. I had, uh, another suicide attempt. I, I went home. From drinking pretty heavily. And I grabbed a bottle of Tylenol and a bottle of ibuprofen, like a couple hundred pills in each one. I, I swallowed all those.
And, uh, I woke up like two days later in that dorm room, throwing up, throwing up blood, I think. Uh, but I couldn't keep anything down. I would take a sip of water immediately throw up, felt like someone had beat my kidneys with a baseball bat. It was, it was horrible. So I got called and I got a ride to the hospital and up there in Flagstaff.
And, you know, I told 'em what I had done, but then they kinda acted like they didn't really know what was wrong with me, and they gave me a bunch of painkillers, you know, sent me home and, and then, you know, I had called my dad and just said, I'm not doing well. I'm, I think I'm dying. So he came up there and got me and brought me back to Phoenix and I went to the doctor and they, they, that's what they said.
They had, you know, kidney infection and pancreatitis real bad. So, um, that was the first time, uh, my doctor looked at me and said, you're gonna die if you don't stop drinking. And. I continued to drink for another year. I think you
joe: were like, that's the plan right now. That's what I want. Kind of almost.
mike: Yeah.
It's like I don't really give a shit at this point, you know? I was so miserable. I didn't care. That would've been a, a nice little vacation, you know, not, not a vacation, a permanent one. It would've been a nice little break from, uh, just a bullshit in my head. You know? I was tortured by just crappy thoughts and I didn't have any hope for the future, and I never thought I was gonna amount to anything.
I, it was very frustrating cuz I couldn't stop drinking no matter what I tried. I was, I would try to limit it. I would try to only drink beer. I would try to only drink on the weekends. I would try to stop on my own. You know, I would last, I remember one time you challenged me and I somehow miraculously didn't drink for like three weeks or a month, I think it was a month.
And on that 30th day, I called you up and I said, Hey, I did it. I told you I could do it. And you're like, awesome man. What are you gonna do now? And I said, I'm getting drunk tonight. You're like, why would you do that? After you just did all that effort and stayed sober for 30 days. And I'm like, cuz I'm dying to drink right now.
You know, I didn't have any other coping skills or life skills whatsoever to manage my internal environment, my thoughts or my emotions. So that's how I managed it and it was a really crappy tool to manage it. So I ended up going down, you know, same kind of crap for another year. And uh, so that
joe: wasn't the catalyst that got you into recovery?
This is where I have like a memory gap. What I remember you almost dying at the hospital and they discharged you and it was like, what the fuck? How did they like blew it off And it was like a, you had like a psychiatric Yeah, they blew kid who almost drank himself to death and they released you like into a taxi.
Yeah. And then your dad came and got you and then I thought that was when you went to recovery. Is that not, that's not what happened.
mike: No, it was, it was. I came back here. Your, your sister got me a job at, uh, the department store she worked at or something like that. I was stocking shelves, but I was drinking that whole time.
I had to make amends to her too for that cuz I, I quit. I, I just didn't show up for that job as I did. You know, I would just not show up for jobs. I could always clean myself up and, you know, I was smart enough and, you know, I wasn't an idiot. I could always get a job, but I could never hold it cuz I would always start drinking again.
But yeah, I was, I was just doing that and I had cut my arms up really bad. I'd gotten depressed and drank a bunch and, uh, took a razor blade to my arms and I was bleeding all over the place. And my dad took me to the hospital and then that time he was tired of it. He was scared and he put a 72 hour cycle hold on me.
So I was stuck in the ho I couldn't leave the hospital for three days. I was in the, the locked psych ward at Good Samaritan. And, um, I called him every day. I wanted to get outta there and he kept telling me, you're not getting out until you go to treatment. So me being the selfish alcoholic that I am, I said, all right, but you better send me to the really nice one.
I want that nice, you know, bougie treatment center. So he spent a ton of money and he sent me to a really good treatment center. And, um, that was, that was the start of my recovery. So
joe: you got sober that time and that started you on the 12 steps? Yeah, and then I got sober. And then what happened? Got outta treatment.
mike: Well, as you know, I met my ex-wife in there and, um, we both stayed sober, worked the 12 steps, went to meetings, did all that life, got really, really good. And, um, you know, life, that's where I was introduced to meditation and prayer and, and all that stuff that you get introduced to in aa. And uh, it was great and it's very common what I did, but my life got so good that I thought I was cured and that I have solved the problem and I'm.
Don't need to do any of the maintenance anymore. So I was with my ex-wife for quite a while, but when I wasn't doing all that stuff, my old emotional garbage from the past that wasn't dealt with, still was around. And I had character defects that I hadn't really worked on that would, you know, eventually they came back out and I started becoming restless, irritable, and discontent.
You know, I, I wasn't meditating or doing any of this stuff that I do now to maintain my, my spiritual and my mental and emotional health. I became very, you know, gratitude's a big part of my life today. Extremely important. Um, I have to want what I have. That's just a mandatory for me nowadays. But during that time, I became extremely ungrateful.
I became, nothing was ever good enough for me. I wanted my ex-wife to be perfect. She wasn't. You know, when she would fail, you know, fail to do exactly how I thought she should behave or what have you, I would get bent outta shape, you know, nothing was good enough for me in the world. And, uh, the opposite of gratitude.
And I was resentful for things that had happened in the past. And it was pretty shocking to see how quickly and how completely I could go back to that attitude, that horrible attitude. And you can't live there very long if you're like me, because your brain starts telling you there's one thing that's gonna make you feel better right now, and that's the only thing that's gonna make you feel better.
And so you might as well just go do it. And so I did. I ended up being, my attitude sucked so bad that my ex-wife filed for divorce and I started drinking secretly here and there. And it, it worked a little bit for a short period of time. You know, it gave me that reduction in an anxiety that I was looking for.
But obviously if you're like me, it uh, doesn't work for very long and you can't control it. I can't, I can't take the first drink cuz then it always leads to a second and then the second leads to a third and then it's 15, 20 and I can't predict how I'm gonna act when I drink. I act like lunatic. And so that's what happened.
I drank for a year. How long
joe: had you been sober at that point? Prior to falling off? Nine years. Damn. And so you drank for a year after the divorce? Yep. Okay. So how did the shift and the transformation happen? Because everything you're describing to me, Is absolutely 100% the polar opposite of how you are now.
mike: A lot of people get sober because they're having problems with their family. The family pressures 'em to get sober. Maybe there's an intervention, maybe they lose their job, maybe their health is poor, they're having legal issues, you know, that sort of thing. There's a lot, a lot of externals, a lot of things that go on that push someone towards getting sober.
They're tired of dealing with that bullshit and they know they have to change. And this time around after my divorce, I had a little bit of money. I had not yet been arrested. I was doing stupid shit. Like I did drive drunk during that period, but I was not, I was not arrested yet. I wasn't broke, I wasn't homeless or destitute, nothing like that.
And I was keeping it pretty well, a secret cause I wasn't around my family much. So none of them knew I was drinking. So I didn't have any of these things. But what I had was a complete bankruptcy internally. I was. The most empty shell of a person that I've ever encountered. And I can see it in other people now I can recognize it cuz that's where I was.
I hated everything. I hated myself. I hated the entire world. I remember thinking one day that if I could drop a nuclear bomb on every city in the on earth and kill everybody on earth, I would do it. Like that's how sick and poisoned my, my thoughts had become. Uh, I was just the most miserable person that you could ever come across.
And I would go to sleep every night with tears in my eyes and my gun to my head thinking, is this the night I'm gonna do this? Cuz I was so, I was so resentful and upset about how my life had turned out. You know, 99% of it was my own doing. I was pretty upset about it, and I didn't think that anything was fair or right in the world.
So I would do that, you know, weeks of doing that every single night. And I would talk myself out of it by saying, you know, don't do it yet. You know, give it one more day and kill yourself tomorrow. And that, that was the bottom for me. I thought, you're gonna go back to aa, you're gonna get sober again, and you're gonna give it one more try.
And if it, if you don't make it this time, you know, then, then you're gonna kill yourself. So that was it. So I, I walked back to an AA meeting with my tail between my legs and ashamed of what I had become. And I just walked in and
it's funny, I never get choked up when I'm telling stories like this, but, um, just reliving it like this. Uh, yeah, I walked in, I sat down and this guy was sitting in there, in the meeting and he is like, do you look like you could use some help? And I said, yep. And that was that. And that's been, you know, I did the work and harder than ever, haven't been perfect.
Um, you know, slacked off a lot, but you know, everybody, it's hard to be perfect in this whole thing. But, um, I got really into the meditation like never before. And I found gratitude and I started to see the world a lot differently. I used to look at the world and I noticed every little imperfection in black spot and everything that wasn't right and perfect.
And now I look at the world and I try my hardest to, and I've gotten pretty good at it. I just gloss over all the negative shit and I, and I pick out and I find a little positive parts, you know, that's what I focus on now. That's a huge attitude change. That's a miracle cuz I, I'm not, I'm not, I've never been like that before this time around.
So been sober coming up on nine years once again. And, uh,
joe: my man, I'm, I'm so fucking proud of you.
mike: March 7th. Actually, in a week if I get there. Nine. Oh, you'll
joe: get there, man. So, wow. First of all, that was intense. Thank you for sharing all that, dude. I know that's not, it's not the way we usually roll. And
mike: speaking of, I was gonna, don't think you've ever seen me cry unless I was, maybe when I was drunk you saw me cry.
I can't remember. I don't
joe: remember either, but I don't take it lightly. I, I'm honored. Um, I remember. I don't do it
mike: very often. I, I, I wish I actually, actually cry more.
joe: I, speaking of, okay. That's gonna lead me to my next set of questions. So, a couple things I didn't wanna interject, but I had so many thoughts going through my head while you were speaking.
So part of the reason why I, I've started doing this podcast and all this stuff is because I too had a gun in my mouth. And I, I want people to realize, How important their mental and their emotional and their spiritual fitness is because it can happen to anybody. I was the guy who people leaned on. I never had emotional issues until I got there in a totally different manner than you.
Like I had so many, you know, the death of so many loved ones and then my physical health and my career and all this stuff. And I wasn't like trying to take the easy way out. Like you said, I felt like I was drowning and I needed to come up for air. Like I have big shoulders, I can tolerate a lot of pain, and I just could no longer tolerate the pain and I went temporarily insane.
And I want everybody to build up their resiliency so that maybe life doesn't deal in a shit show like it did to us, but so that they nev either A, you never get to that point, or B, if nothing traumatic happens to you, then you're thriving. But like, I think it's super important. To acknowledge it and share it.
And the more I open up and share this, the more I step outside of my comfort zone, the less uncomfortable it is for me. Because the more guys talk to me in private and tell me that they've experienced similar things. But I remember one of those time periods you called me and told me about that, that you had a gun to your head and that you weren't gonna do it.
And I remember like asking you like, dude, I just lost Sean. My other best friend passed away. Like, please don't do it. And you're like, well, I'm not, no promises. I'm not gonna do it today. And I remember thinking, this is how quickly this can shift. Like here we are, 10 years later, I got a gun in my mouth. I remember when that happened, thinking I didn't, again, I didn't have a emotional clarity like I have now, and I hadn't been on the journey that I had now.
I remember thinking like, what the fuck is going on? Mikey is so crazy. He could kill himself. Like it was beyond my scope of even understanding. And so to be in the same position years later, totally coincidentally, it just shows you how important it is to have. Clear emotional awareness and mental resilience.
And I wanted to ask you, um, you. So I cry. I don't care. I like talking. I'm very expressive, you know that. I like to journal, I like to speak to counselors. I like to wrap with my friends and share my feelings and get 'em off my chest. It's how I purge the trauma and how I stay so bubbly and happy. You don't, and that's a, that's good.
Like we have different temperaments and I think there's a million ways to slice up emotional fitness into process. And in fact, that's kind of part of why I want to talk to you. It's good to have somebody who has such an opposite personality to me in a lot of ways to share how you get to that, that place.
I have two questions. One is, you've talked to me before about how sometimes, and you're, you're not my only friend who does this, you'll work out so hard that those feelings come up and you purge 'em and you start crying and you don't exactly know why or what's going on. But then you get the same feeling that I get when I sit and cry to a counselor and journal.
You're like a thousand pounds lighter, like the evil was fucking in you and it came out at least, I don't wanna put words into your mouth, but like, that's kind of the way I'm, I'm re I'm paraphrasing you. And then you had also mentioned. You hadn't processed your trauma and your emotions and stuff, that's kind of what led you and you got sober, but you, you, I don't remember exactly how you said it, but you hadn't dealt with the stuff in your past.
How did you end up dealing with that? Like, I remember you were trying for a while and you were dealing with ketamine and it didn't really take, and all this stuff. Like how did you reconcile your past and process if you did your trauma and how do you go about purging that stuff? Nowadays, since like being not as, uh, extroverted and expressive like I
mike: am, I've always been more introverted and a little on the quiet side.
So my process for dealing with things is a little bit different than certain other. There's probably a lot of people out there like me though. For one thing, I was very desperate when I got sober this time cuz I had been broken so badly that I was willing to do anything. And you're supposed to be willing to do anything it takes to stay sober when you get sober cuz you have to, it's just addiction and alcoholism is very powerful.
You gotta, you gotta do some things you didn't wanna do. So you can't be, I, I had to crush any part of me that was stubborn and said, fuck that. I'm not doing that, that's stupid. Or that's a silly suggestion. I don't wanna do that. I'm not getting on my hands and knees and praying. Like that's, that wasn't me.
That's not who I was. I wasn't atheist at that point. Like I just didn't want to do a lot of it. But I was desperate enough to, to try a lot of, a lot of things. So I was, uh, you know, I went and saw a therapist again even though I didn't really believe it was gonna work. And I, you know, one of the suggestions was to me to write a letter to my dead mom.
Read it and then burn the letter, you know? So I went to her grave site and I, I, I read it and the whole time, you know, the back of my mind is telling me, this is stupid. This is silly. I feel dumb doing this. This is not gonna work anyways. But I did it anyways. So a lot of it was just having the maturity, I think, finally to do things anyways, even though part of me thought it was stupid, you know, or silly.
So I did a lot of stuff like that. The mindfulness was a huge, huge aspect. For some reason, prayer doesn't, I don't know what other people are feeling when they, when they pray, but for me it's not, it's not where the magic happens for me. For me, it happens during meditation, um, and then after meditation. So I try to practice things.
I don't beat myself up, but I hold myself to a much higher standard than I used to. I try to be more lenient with others than I ever was before. Little things like that, cuz a lot of things, it's, it's the little things that pile up on you, I think. That take you down in the end because the little things are the ones you ignore.
You know, if a major tragedy happened to me tomorrow, my guard would be up. I'd be thinking, I gotta really take care of myself. I gotta make sure my, my recovery's tight so I don't pick up a drink over this. You know, my other people would be there to support. But on a day-to-day basis, when little things come on, it's easy to brush 'em off and say, yeah, that, that bothered me, but I'm gonna freak, I'm gonna ignore it.
Uh, I have to stay on top of the little things. And it's, it's not hard, but there's discipline there. I have to be diligent and just little practices every day. And I could always, I could always be better, but whether it's staying a little mantra to myself while I'm at work or sitting down for 10 minutes to meditate, you know, these are the things I have to do to moderate and, and maintain my internal environment, because I know damn well that if I forget I'm an alcoholic or if I forget to do these things.
That I'm not cured. Life is a long journey. There's no point where human beings get to in their life or they're like, cool, I'm all done. I'm all set. I'm gonna coast from here on out. There's always maintenance work to be done. And I know for a fact because I've lived it, that I can be doing really well and then I can backslide if I'm not careful back to drinking and have a gun to my head again.
You know? And, uh, I don't live in fear of that happening, but I, there's a reality there, and I know that that's, that's waiting for me. I can feel that
joe: way too. Even though I've never had an addiction. I, I survived that day. I didn't kill myself and I committed that I would never get there again. And I, I've learned it's like a lesson.
Um, this is years ago now, but like I've learned discipline versus motivation. I'm very rarely motivated to do a lot of the things that are good for. But I almost treat my wellness the way you guys do your steps and your practices. So I, a lot of times, like I don't feel like journaling or getting in that ice cold pool or meditating or doing any of the things that I know that keep me so far from that place.
But I do them anyways because when I let my guard down, just like how you, you think like drinking can slip in through the back door. I, and I very rarely get like angry or depressed anymore. But I can feel the twinge of it and I'm like, oh fuck, I wanna be a million miles away from that feeling. I'm not slipping on my practices no matter how.
Especially when life gets rough, that's when I don't feel like doing the things that are healthiest for me. And that's actually when I push myself to do the what. And sometimes that doing the thing that's good for me is not doing anything. Sometimes it's non-doing, it's resting or whatever. Or sometimes, like I said, it's actively, it's working out or it's talking or whatever.
But like I, I don't fuck around with my practices. I'm a hundred percent disciplined on them because. I don't think I could ever get to that place again. But I, I don't wanna test that theory out, you know?
mike: Yeah, exactly. And like you said, I have tried various things. I tried ketamine treatments for my depression, and it wasn't super successful for me.
But the most important things are getting good sleep, meditating for five, 10 minutes a day. You know, that's all it takes. Eating well and exercise. And if I do those things, the depression is kept to a point where I don't even feel like I have depression anymore. I think I do, because if I stopped doing those things, I would probably become depressed again.
But in a sense, it's, it's basically treatment. I've tried a dozen antidepressants over the last 25 years. None of them worked for me. I'm highly medication resistant and I have my doubts about that stuff. Sometimes I think it helps, uh, some people claim it helps them, and that's awesome. But for me, it didn't help.
So I had to go another route. I had to find other ways and. Those lifestyle things are the things that have helped. And I can tell, I, I pay the price and I suffer when I don't do those things. Uh, if I slack on my meditation for a week or two, you know, my partner MJ notices, she'll tell me, Hey, you should go meditate.
She know notices that my demeanor's different, or my internal environment's different or, you know, I'll start ranting about politics and just get a crappy attitude again. You know, and she'll, uh, help me, keep me in line. Just re she reminds me, you know, Hey, um, stop ranting and I'll, I'll catch my son and I'll, I'll look at myself and see what I'm doing.
And it's incredibly important that I keep doing that cuz I don't wanna pay that price. Let's say I don't drink, but I don't, I don't wanna be miserable, you know, miserable for a week or have a bad day because of it. Cuz I can think myself right into having a bad day when nothing else bad, really. The only thing bad that happened was my thoughts between my ears.
You know, the mind is a
joe: pesky dick and it will perpetually try and drag you into the abyss. But it does, you can hijack and take control over the wheel, but it's a, it's a practice and it's a dedication.
mike: Well, I think human beings are very good at finding problems to solve. Yeah, I think so. Dude. And your brain will do that constantly.
You know, mine does. I just sit there thinking about problems. Oh, that's a problem in my life. I need to fix that. There's no gratitude there. And you're focusing on the the ugly thing. I don't like to focus on the ugly parts. You know, I do so much better when I focus on the better parts and I, you know, make myself think of things like what?
And it's not like doing that cliched thing. Oh, oh, look on the bright side. No, that's not, that's different. Yeah. People have real problems and that's pain, you know, exists. But you do not have to let it run your whole. You know, that's what I've gotten better at. Yes, things happen all the time that aren't the, the way I would've preferred it to happen, but life is a mixture of good and bad and I, I'm not exempt from the bad things happening to me.
A as long as I can practice acceptance, I do pretty well. And that's a huge part too. I couldn't accept anything before when I was younger, everything was unacceptable to me. Now, if I can accept things, I feel pretty good. It's not that bad, you know? I accept that my mom died. I accept that I'm an alcoholic.
I accept that my ex-wife left me. In some ways I'm better off because of some of those events, and I can see that now, and in other ways it's just like, well, it was my turn to have something unfortunate. I'm not exempt.
joe: It's not dismissing the pain and it's not being unempathetic cuz I've listened to you.
You're, you're an empathetic dude and it's not like, oh, look on the bright side, write down three things that make you happy. That's not really what a gratitude practice is about. It's about the mind. So pain exists, it's, it's part of the process, it's part of our life. It's gonna happen, but the mind will take that pain and create a shitload of thoughts and feelings about that pain and it compounds it into suffering.
And the suffering part is optional, but you have to work at it because like I said, the mind is a total pesky dick. The way I like to put it is I say that there's no middle ground with the mind. It's your mind and your emotions are gonna make you their bitch, or you're gonna make your mind and your emotions, your bitch.
And meditation allows me to make my mind and my emotions the bitch. I take control of the wheel, but it's never like into submission. I'm always having to punk my mind out by stopping and breathing and surrendering and accepting because these things that happen, they're like a brick wall. Like my mom died.
It just happened a few months ago. But like if I run my head against that brick wall, the brick wall isn't changing, but I'm cracking my head open and making it hurt much worse. I need to just like figure out a way to climb over the wall or sit next to the wall. It's not about like saying that that thing doesn't suck or it doesn't hurt and not processing it.
It's non-resistance and surrender and acceptance. Those are very challenging practices and that is where for me, the beauty of the meditation practice comes into play, to be honest with you, because if I can sit still with my. And tolerate my thoughts or my neck hurting or that loud noise. You do that time and time again and you get muscle memory and you get focused on coming back to the breath, relaxing with your body, surrendering to whatever thoughts you have going on, and it translates into the rest of your life, at least for me.
mike: Absolutely. Um, I used to have this thing written on my wall that I taped up there, or my bathroom mirror or something in my house. I wrote, let go or be Dragged. Oh, it's so good because all I ever used to do was struggle against the current constantly. I'm like, I end up in the same place now. I'm just tired and frustrated as well.
You know, might as well just relax a little bit and let go of, you know, I can beat myself up and put myself through hell. It's not gonna make any difference. I just, you know, suffered unnecessarily. And what was the other thing you were saying? You were saying something about.
joe: I don't know if this is what I was gonna say, but I, I do those grief letters pretty regularly.
The first time I went into counseling, grandma Margaret, our grandma had died and my dog Roxy had died within five days of each other. They both died. Mm-hmm. And it was fucked up, dude. And I was like sitting there trying to write grandma's eulogy. Roxy wasn't at my feet, I was just hurting so bad. And I got into counseling and he had me write letters to Sean, my friend who'd passed away of an overdose, my dog, Roxy, our our grandma, and write these letters.
And again, dude, everybody is very resistant to this practice until they do it. But like these grief letters, they're like, fire dude. And it's like fucking walking through 'em. It's so painful. But it's also like such an amazing way. To, I don't wanna say have closure, but reconcile and process those feelings and you have to walk through it and feel it to heal it and to experience that pain.
It's very, very painful. It's very uncomfortable. But then you read 'em, and then I, sometimes I still do them by the way. Like I, you know, I, I've written a few of these letters to my mom just recently, and I read them. I look at pictures of her and I read these letters until I either can't tolerate the tears anymore until there are no more tears to cry.
And then I feel a thousand pounds lighter for weeks. I mean, it's amazing. So it's very much like, It sucks doing it, but it's incredible. And I think a lot of people, they think they've processed their trauma or their grief, but then you ask 'em like, oh, what did you do when your dad died? How did you process that?
And they're like, oh, I don't know. I just kinda like moved on. It's like, no, man, that shit's in there, bro. And it's stored the fuck up and you gotta get it out. And I'd like to walk through with you on this, but it's, it's painful. Like for my fireman friends out there, c p r on a baby while a dad is watching crying, that shit doesn't go away.
And there's lots of different ways of doing it, but I have found that writing those expressive writing letters and reading them out loud and then different ways, some people burn 'em, some people keep 'em, whatever, delete the document. But like, dude, it's powerful,
mike: man. I thought it was some hokey, you know, bullshit to be honest, until I did it.
And I can't explain exactly what happened, but what it feels like when I think about it now. Was I, when I used to think about my mom, it would be negative emotions would come in and I, my brain would kind of think of it as like some unresolved problem or something. And after I did the letter, it was like my brain had released that problem and say, that's not a problem for us anymore.
We don't have to wrestle within, struggle about and think about it much. It's just, it's gone. We let it go now. It was a weird like letting go kind of thing.
joe: It refiles it like on your computer, like it puts it into, it's not gone. Of course your mom still died. That's never not painful and terrible, but it doesn't need to be a thing that is consciously or subconsciously harming you or weighing you down anymore even though it's still there.
mike: Exactly. And now when I think about her, I just, I, it's more neutral or I think about good things that sh you know, I remember about. I don't think about like, oh, death and how horrible she looked and how, oh, that's so, it was so unfair to me that, you know, that happened and, and all this, you know, negative, you know, stuff now it's just, just, uh, it doesn't bother me when I think about her.
And some people will say, oh, that's cuz more time had passed. But man, that's not what, what it was. Cuz this has been, uh, you know, it's like 20 years before I wrote that letter. So
joe: it's weird how the body keeps the score and that stuff doesn't go away either until you do that. It has to go, doesn't, it's really weird.
I still, what I find is sometimes with these deep losses, I'm good for a while and then I see a picture and all of a sudden, instead of it being a fond memory, the tears or the pain start coming again. And then it's time for me to write a new letter and then I, I go back to the practice. I don't like it.
It's always, I procrastinate it. Like I know I need to do it, but then I sit down and I do it and it's so powerful and it keeps me feeling light and happy, you know? And it, for sure, it helps me, um, like you said, maintain that ability to watch a video of my lost loved one and smile rather than cry and that's so beautiful, dude.
Mm-hmm.
mike: Yeah, it's, it's amazing.
joe: Okay, so what about dogs? I noticed that you started getting a lot happier when you started getting dogs, and so this is weird, like you didn't used to dig meditation and then all of a sudden, I remember you're like the person who I can talk to about meditation the most now.
And so it's like, oh, I love this. We have this common interest and then like, I've always been obsessed with my dogs and you never dislike dogs, but you never own dogs. And then all of a sudden, I think, I feel like I noticed a huge, like humanity opening up and personality shift when you started getting dogs and it like sw my heart up.
Am I, is that correct?
mike: Well, two things for me happened when I got dogs. So I got rescue dogs. They had some issues. So for one, you're. Anytime you're, you're put in a position of being responsible for something else, generally, in my experience, a positive thing for you. So I got some responsibility there with looking after these dogs with issues.
So that was good for me because anytime I'm thinking about something else other than myself, it's probably a good thing. And then the other thing is, I've learned a lot from dogs. You just watch dogs. They're, they're the ultimate animals are in the moment all the time. They're not thinking about what, what are they gonna do next month?
How are they gonna make more, you know, money? They're not thinking about any of it. What matters is right now, they're not even planning for the next meal. They're just in the moment. And that's their default setting. So I watch 'em and it's amazing. Eckhart calls him
joe: the Guardians of Presence and he says, you should watch your dogs.
And your cats and just like learn how to just be in the moment. They, they model so much to us. I like to say, cuz I've lost three of 'em now. They live only such a short amount of time because of everything you just described. Like we, we come into this world and we have like 80 to a hundred years if we're lucky.
And it takes us that long to learn to like lean in, love hard, be present, not hold grudges, have gratitude. We're like slow learners. They come out the gate knowing that stuff. So they only gotta be on the planet 10 years because they already come out like, you know, we probably have 10 years of doing it right at the end anyways.
But like, they, they come out knowing it and that's why I, I feel like they have such a short lifespan. I don't know, maybe that is just something that like, I like it, it helps make me feel, uh, you know. Okay. About losing them. Hey, I have one last question and then I think we're at a good stopping point. You obviously don't have children, but you were a kid, I consider 19 a kid, and you were 12 and you were 13 who dealt with.
Serious mental and emotional difficulties, trauma, grief, and more specifically addiction. And my kids have emotional issues too, and we're always working through them and I'm always looking for like, I know with addiction you have to hit rock bottom and you can't force that on somebody else. But is there anything for parents who are struggling with children who are experiencing addiction or whatever you were experiencing, you're no psychologist or parent or whatever, but like from your perspective as somebody who lived through it, is there anything as parents we could do that might have been helpful to you or that was helpful to
mike: you?
Here's my opinion, and I say this as someone who has never had, I don't have children of my own, much less any that have struggled with addiction. And I know that this task. Pretty monumental because I think most parents know that, you know, you're not supposed to be an enabler and, and this and that. It's very difficult for most people.
It's much easier said than done. But there are certain things that are absolute truth in my opinion. One, you are not going to control them. You will not, you will not control them. The other thing is you living in fear and not managing your own self. Your own reactions, your own attitudes and outlooks and internal emotionally environment is going to be detrimental to you and the child.
So you have to take care of yourself and you have to constantly remember that you're not you, you're not in control and you can't micromanage your way out of this situation. You can't bully the kid into doing what they, what you think they, they should be doing. You have to accept a lot. You have to let go a little bit.
That's the only, I think that's the only option. Otherwise, uh, you'll probably destroy yourself in the process. Your kid's gonna do what they're gonna do, be present, and be there for when they need the help. But I think, uh, knowing those things and practicing mindfulness yourself and just constantly reminding yourself that you need to relinquish control of the situation and relax a little bit, we'll give you room to breathe a little bit and you'll be able to handle it.
I think better. It's
joe: like a delicate balance because you've shared with me about how you can enable somebody and literally love them to death. Like, you know, people who had like heroin addiction and their parents didn't wanna let they, they enabled them so much that they killed themselves. But it's also like if you let your kid go into that world and you surrender that control and then they die, I can't, the, it's an impossible position to be in and it's such to know how to strike that balance between.
The appropriate amount of support without enabling if you haven't experienced it? I don't know cuz I haven't experienced that. Although I have experienced some intense violence that my children have, my, my daughter has experienced herself. Um, surrender was a big deal. Surrendering to the outcome of and grieving what I thought her childhood was gonna be and accepting what.
And then being like always available when she wanted it or needed it, but accepting when she like was repelled and pushed me away and, and wouldn't accept the help, but then being there sometimes it almost was like a subconscious test and I, I never let her drive me away. And we came through some shit together and she's on, on the other end of it now, and we have an incredible bond.
But it was like, I, I looked at photos of her childhood and while it was torment, I grieved like what I thought her childhood would be. I did those letters. I wrote letters to myself as a parent. Those expressive writing, like, this is what you thought it was gonna be. This is what it was like. Was Sophie laying on your chest and sleeping and then, and then you didn't know that she was gonna try and stab you with a state knife and then come out of her FTE and wanna harm herself when she was seven years old.
You poor bastard. This is what you're getting into. And I wrote letters to myself, to her, I'm so sorry. You're gonna experience that. And then now, like six years have past and we're through it and we got her diagnosed and everything is great. But like, that was brutal. And there was a huge art to being present, regulating my own emotions, being able to respond to her from my heart and my center, rather than reacting from my own hot emotions.
And a lot of what you just described, I mean, it's a different circumstance and addiction, but very similar circumstances to what you're talking about. So thank you
mike: for sharing that. Yeah. The situation is that you're, you're along for the ride with them. You're not in control. So, you know, do your best. Give yourself a break from time to time would be my advice.
It's hard. It's gonna be hard either way. You know, if you have a kid with addiction, it's rough. But you know, being around other parents who've gone through it or who are going through it currently is a huge help too. If you feel like you're the only person going through this, it's just gonna be way worse.
joe: Wow, that's good insight, man. Thank you for sharing that. And I think we've hit a good stopping point, dude, and I know this was way outside of your comfort zone. Thank you so much for doing this. You're welcome. We didn't, we kind of went into the want, want we didn't even get into like you're an incredible human being.
You mentor people, you help people become sober. You model emotional regulation. You're like an upstanding member of the community. You can went back and got a hundred degrees, not just one degree. You're a nurse through Covid. Like, dude, you've done so much amazing shit. You flipped a crazy set of circumstances in life on its head, and I'm so thankful to have you in my life.
I'm so fucking proud of you. I love you so much. I'm grateful to you for doing this for me and let go or be dragged, bro. I think that's a good ending note for this.
mike: I think so too. Thanks for having me. And uh, I could say all that stuff about you too, man. Love you.
joe: I love you so much, bro. Peace. I really hope you enjoyed that conversation and that in some way it helps you out wherever you're at in your journey.
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Other than that, thank you so much for listening. Stay calm and stay strong. Peace.
